Equality or Special Treatment? Pick One
One of the sites I frequent is The 20 Sided Woman Project. It’s run by Sapphire, a woman who is exploring gender differences in gaming. She’s asked a lot of questions and interviewed quite a few people, myself included.
I respect Sapphire and agree that finding more ways to make women comfortable with gaming can only improve the hobby. More people playing means our games survive through difficult economic times, and that benefits all of us.
Yet, some people take things too far. On Sapphire’s blog I found a link entitled A Letter to the Gaming Industry which purports to speak for women in gaming. I read the letter expecting an attitude similar to Sapphire’s, but was floored by what I read.
The authors aren’t looking for acceptance in the gaming world. They are looking to change it to suit their moral version of what it should be. Check out this paragraph:
“Be aware of how your advertising effects us. Not just emotionally, but how your ads and events can put us in unsafe and uncomfortable positions when we game online, with new players, or at conventions. It is again, a matter of a minority making the majority look bad, but keep in mind when a choice you make as the industry might put the women who are a part of your community in dangerous or uncomfortable decisions.”
The parts in bold are what bothers me. It says that advertising on the part of gaming companies is endangering women. Are you serious? Let’s take a look at some of this evil advertising shall we. This is the cover to one of the recent Shadowrun books:
Now bear in mind that I did some searching. Surprisingly, I actually had a hard time finding an RPG book with a scantily clad woman on the cover. This one is the closest I could find after looking through Exalted, Shadowrun and a few others. (If someone can find me a better one I’ll replace it. I’m looking for something really racy)
Still, it illustrates my point. Covers like this are putting women in danger? Men are going to see this and feel compelled to harass or even rape women at conventions? That claim is not only ludicrous, but its completely unsupported by any scientific evidence.
Even if it were somehow true that advertising could endanger women, it would only mean that they are all doomed to a life of harassment and rape. Why? Because our society is pervaded by ads that objectify women. Take a look at this cover from Cosmo and compare it to the Shadowrun cover:
It’s as revealing if not more so. This is hardly the steamiest cover I could have found, either. There are far worse I see on the shelves whenever I go to the grocery store.
Look at the shows and commercials you see on TV. They are full of sex. Who wasn’t cracking jokes this summer about Megan Fox in the Transformers movie? She was there as eye candy, not for her acting ability.
All these types of entertainment and advertising are rife with images of women who are one step above naked. Yet no one is claiming that people who view them will feel compelled to attack or harass women.
The claim made by the women over at A Letter to the Gaming Industry makes no sense, but it wasn’t the only part of the letter to draw my ire. They also had this to say:
“Sometimes we are too afraid to speak up at all for fear of alienation, abuse, or difficulty finding work in the industry because we might be seen as ‘hard to work with,’ when all we were doing was trying to have a discussion and change things for the better.”
I’ve been a gamer for nearly thirty years. During that time I’ve seen my hobby go through hardship after hardship. Companies like TSR and FASA have ceased to exist, because pen and paper RPGs are a dwindling market. Its not easy to make a profit and more and more hobby shops and companies are closing their doors.
They are working hard to stay open, and that means making tough business decisions. If I’m the head of a gaming company and I have someone apply that wants to change how we’re doing things I’m going to pass them over in favor of someone else.
Why? I need someone who can help me sell more copies of whatever book I’m producing. Having someone come into an interview or join a company and start telling me to change cover or internal art because its offensive to women is going to ensure they either never get the job or are fired if they did get it.
People play RPGs to escape from their real lives for a little bit. We like to pretend to be something we aren’t. When I play a game of D&D I’m not doing it to be some acne infested overweight teen.
I want to look like the guy on the cover, the one who’s built like Hercules and has a face like Brad Pitt. I want to play a character that has a chance with the scantily clad well endowed woman on the cover next to Hercules.
For decades I’ve been able to do exactly that when I step into one of many fictional worlds out there. From Rifts to D&D to Vampire you can be whatever you want to be, and tell any story you’d like to. You can escape from your dull dreary life to become a hero, or a swordsman or a suave ladykiller.
What gives these women the right to come in and change that? Do you really find my hobby so offensive that you think it needs to change? If you want a game that doesn’t glorify or objectify the female body then make your own. Market it and sell it and see how it does. If there is an audience for it you’ll find them, and create the community you seem to seek.
Don’t try to change my hobby. It’s fine the way it is. Our advertising is fine. Our games are fine. We like sex. We like nudity. You don’t have the right to tell us we can’t, or to try to change it.
If you do successfully neuter our hobby maybe you’ll find this ‘acceptance’ and ‘safety’ that you’re looking for. But it won’t be the same hobby anymore. It will be your moral version of what it should be, and that’s just wrong.
If you want to fight for equality you have my support. No one should be excluded or mocked because of race or gender. But asking us to change to suit your views? That’s asking for special treatement. Pick one. You can’t have both.
When I game I don’t do it with men or with women. I do it with gamers. I know men AND women who like the hobby the way it is. We have a blast and we don’t see a need to ‘fix’ it. You have a right to your opinion and your crusade, but we have a right to ours as well.
The part where you are absolutely right is that is such artwork does not place women in danger. If there’s one thing I would state with certainty, it’s that supressing women’s bodies either in artwork or in real life does *not* reduce risk or diminish objectification of women.
The other part where you are right is that when you game, you don’t play with men or women, but with gamers. The reason why I don’t say absolutely right is because whilst this is an ideal principle, I don’t know you and don’t know how well you achieve this aspiration. But I have no reason to doubt you so please don’t take offense.
Now such artwork may put some women off the products which contain them. That’s understandable if it makes the product look like it is intended for sexually deprived males. And that’s where I depart from what you’ve said. Everyone has a voice in the industry. If part of the audience say that they find such images off-putting then they have as much right to that opinion as you when you say you find it appealing. But I think the most likely people to be put off by such covers are actually males such as myself in their mid-twenties upwards. Quite frankly, we don’t want to have some distorted barbie doll in two strips of silk on our bookshelf when we invite a woman round for the evening. It makes us look considerably less sexually advanced than we like to think of ourselves. And aside from simply not finding that sort of thing attractive.
Now the cover of the Runners Companion above looks okay to me. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a woman looking sexual. Now if she looks like a charicature of sexual characteristics with a face slapped on as an afterthought, well that’s just poor artwork, but the above looks like a person and I don’t think many women would look at it and think otherwise. Quite frankly, all of the women I’ve played with have, co-incidentally or not, been quite clear in expressing the sexual attractiveness of their PCs and more than one has picked out examples of such artwork as the Runners Companion cover and said they liked it and indicated that such images were part of what they want to play. Similarly, you’ll find a rather large number of good looking men in RPG books with musculature and definition which is, quite frankly, unattainable for most of us males playing. It’s just part of the general millieu many games are set in.
If you’ve ever been the sole male amidst a group of women who are discussing the cock sizes of men they’ve dated (I have), then you’ll get an idea for how a prevalence of this sort of artwork can make you feel self-conscious. It’s an issue that should be kept in mind in the same way other peoples sensibilities should be kept in mind. If I see an objectionable racial stereotype in a game, I go BESERK, so I’m not one to condemn others dislike of stereotypes and exaggeration, objectified portrayals. However, it’s wrong for any woman to pretend to speak for all women. That really would be sexist. Everyone is their own person. Most women I know wouldn’t have an issue with the cover of the Runners Companion that you showed. And I know that some would like it because it shows a sort of woman they’d like to be – tough and sexy (and an elf). More of an issue is the perceived immaturity of some games. You didn’t look very hard for a bad, sexualised cover. Try this after a thirty second search:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=65180&filters=100_0_0_0_0
(If the link changes, it was “Mega-Feats Revised” for Pathfinder). Now some women will find it offensive on the grounds of sexualising objectification, but probably far more men would find it off-putting on the grounds that we don’t want people thinking that’s what we’re into.
If I were running an RPG product line, you’d see a fair few sexy women in the artwork, and you’d see some sexy men too. But they would actually be women and men, not bad bundles of exaggerated sexual traits. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the former in artwork (after all, we don’t object to it in real life), but the latter is something that loads of people dislike regardless of gender or orientation. And rightly so. We enjoy RPGs because they’re a fun hobby. Any portrayal of it as being the preserve of lonely teenage boys is something we dislike. And it needn’t have anything to do with gender.
I’ll correct the site to include your link when I get home this evening Khadim. I’m at work and the filter blocks a lot of the sites including drivethru. Thanks for finding a better link.
You have some great comments too. I appreciate you taking the time to express your point of view.
the biggest problem i have with your rebuttal is that you say, a few times “my hobby.” Don’t try to change “my hobby.” It’s just yours, is it? The women who wrote that article don’t have any claim to it at all?
Point taken Brian. They do have some claim to the industry, just as anyone who games should be able to do. That’s part of why I started the thread over at http://www.rpg.net. It gives that letter a lot of exposure, and ultimately people will be able to decide for themselves.
The fact remains that -I- like the hobby the way it is. I could have said the hobby, but then it divorces my connection to it. I’m speaking for me and only for me so I thought my hobby made the most sense.
That doesn’t deprive anyone else of their right to say what they want about it. If it came across that way it wasn’t my intention. Moving past that do you believe that advertising in gaming is dangerous to women?
After reading the letter and taking the time to read your post Chris, I have to say this.
WHAT IN THE FRAK ARE THESE WOMEN ON.
Seriously, I am a pure-blooded gamer chick and I do not see in any way how the companies are placing me or other women in danger. IT is the actions of the person behind the character in what ever game they are playing that draws attention. If you do not want to be seen as a sex object, then do not dress your character in scantly clad gear nor give them a personality that screams the sex appeal. Do not throw your character out there, having them flirt or say things naughty or implying if you do not want that type of attention. See the trend here, you do not want that attention then DO not act in such a manner that shall gain such attention.
It is that kind of narrow minded crap that gives bad reps for the games I love and enjoy playing and gives gamer chicks like me labels I do not want.
You want an anecdote?
I had a friend who was groped viciously at Comic Con. The perpetrator had a friend take a picture of the incident. Why? Because he was trying to win a prize from Electronic Arts’ advertising department.
But she’s narrow-minded and her opinion doesn’t matter, right? She should just shut up and leave the boys’ hobby alone.
So let me see if I understand this correctly David. Not only is Electronic Arts encouraging people to sexually assault random women at Comic Con, but they are having a contest for the the best proof of this felony being committed?
A multi-billion dollar corporation is asking people to commit aggravated sexual assault? Not only that but in a place where the media spotlight is focused as brightly as it can be? To what possible benefit?
No corporation in the world would allow a stunt like this. That’s asking for a lawsuit. Many lawsuits. And it would generate the worst PR they could possibly have.
This doesn’t wash and I don’t buy it. Cute.
If your friend really did get groped at Comic Con I think that’s tragic. It never should have occured and the person who did it should be prosecuted.
I just don’t buy EA getting people to perpetrate crimes while filming it at their behest.
You also mentioned it being a boy’s hobby, but your comment is directed at a woman. Christine is a good friend of mine and we’ve gamed together for many years.
Still, I’ll assume you meant that comment for me and not her so I’ll respond accordingly.
Just because I took issue with the women posting this letter doesn’t mean I don’t want women in the gaming industry. Why does an objection to a specific part of the letter make me anti-woman? It’s not a man’s hobby. It’s a gamers hobby.
http://kotaku.com/5322216/ea-provides-girls-asks-gamers-to-sin-to-win
Wow. That is without a doubt the most tasteless ad I have ever seen. I can’t imagine someone reading this and deciding to grope random women, but obviously someone must or David wouldn’t have posted.
This seems a pretty clear cut example of how a woman can be put in danger from advertising, which means I need to recant my entire post. Shit. Well tomorrow I’ll make another thread on RPG.net and do up a post showing this ad and telling David’s story.
I feel like an ass =/
No no, nothing’s invalidated. Although I’ve never seen it, I’ve heard reports of women being groped or otherwise being harassed and abused at cons that didn’t have the excuse of being ground zero for a stupid advertising campaign. I remain of the opinion that people do creepy and horrible shit like what David mentioned without the help of advertising, sexist or otherwise. Your posts points and the questions it indirectly opens still are worthwhile.
EA’s stunt was probably at the farthest extreme of “can advertising of gaming harm women.” I disagree that it did harm (people, who took an advertising scheme out of context, did harm), but I’d understand if people disagree with me on that. More importantly though, would roleplaying (or gaming in general) benefit from a paradigm shift to prevent anything like this from happening? Someone on RPGnet mentioned that gaming would benefit from erring on the side of prudishness, but I disagree with that.
You don’t have to move off of Exalted to find one:
http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads/2004PDFs/7July04PDF/ExaltedSavantandSorceror.jpg
Even without as direct an example as the EA Sin to Win campaign, the ubiquity of sexual objectification of women in the advertising and art of the gaming (or any) industry presents cultural support for gender discrimination and it’s associated risk. Whether it be the privileging of appearance over competence for determining the value of women, the defaulting of women’s sexual availability, or the implied approval in regards to violent acts against women (Rapelay, Pimp the Backhanding, the beaten looking slavegirls in the Conan RPG art), these images and products contribute to a cultural environment which at best fails to condemn the violation of women and at worst initites it (Sin to Win). There needn’t be a one to one relationship between the product and the act for there to be a connection. Any contribution to an environment of acceptability contributes to the acts that happen within it.
Great point faworthy, I have a feeling you “get” it.
Maybe its hard for you guys to understand, but the constant over emphasis on the female form only serves to enforce the idea to many that a woman’s value lies only in her genetic traits. That causes all sorts of problems and damage. Its not about ruining your fun, its about trying to repair the power shift where women are only as valuable as how sexual they will be/look. Its not about special treatment, or being the superior gender, its about asking that we be respected. Currently, sexual objectification and respect do not dwell in the same house. You wouldn’t perpetuate stereotypes or values that would do social harm to people of color, or people with disabilities, would you? Women still suffer wage disparity and other forms of discrimination, usually based on stereotypes that can be traced back to “women only exist as objects for men’s pleasure”, an idea that is rooted in this extreme objectification.
I think we just want to be considered–not take over and dictate that everything go our way. I think we’d like to be valued for our brains more than our body, to not be groped on the subway, or leered at wherever we go and constantly reminded that no one cares if we can do long division, they just want to know if we’ll flash our tits. I can’t tell you how painful and damaging that can be. Again, its not about ruining your fun or making women the “superior gender”. I think most feminists like myself would just like to see us all respect one another regardless of whether or not we present ourselves sexually. Currently, this industry does not facilitate that sort of respect. You may argue that its not the industry’s “responsibility”, but isn’t it all our personal responsibility to act decently and not behave in a way that perpetuates discrimination? I guess that’s up to each individual.
One more thing. You make the point a lot about how men have fantasy physiques in games, too. Please remember that objectifying men in our society rarely leads to social problems and degradation such as it does to women. We comment on women’s bodies so much that they become “public property” where anyone feels they have a right to comment on a woman’s appearance, whether or not she’s presented herself in a way that means she’d like to be objectified. Failure to measure up is seen as failure as a person. This wouldn’t normally be a problem if women were given the encouragement and opportunities and lessons in self sufficiency that are given to men. Instead, we’re taught that we have to be physically perfect to keep a man, and we must keep a man in order to survive/be happy. No wonder we have an epidemic of young women who fight and claw to find a sugar daddy, practically prostituting themselves for a little security. They’re just trying to survive the only way they’ve been taught, and they barely know any better.
I truly sincerely believe this will work itself out in the future as more women are taught to be self sufficient, and men are seen less as a commodity and are valued more for their personality than their checking account (yes, I acknowledge that men have their fair share of problems too, and being valued for your money over you as a person must feel absolutely terrible) but until then, we must all try. At least a little.
We don’t want to “take over” and ruin everyone’s fun. We’d just like to be considered.
GG, how can you even suggest that men don’t understand? A man is as constantly judged by his appearance as a woman.
An attractive man is more likely to be promoted, more likely to get the girl and just generally more well liked. An attractive athletic man is even more so.
An unattractive or fat man is ignored and looked down upon. When I see a guy on the cover of a magazine or even an RPG cover the men are ripped. They too have perfect bodies.
Objectification of the male form is just as common as that of the female. As you’ve pointed out such conceptions can be very damaging. The differences is that I know they happen to men every day, but you casually dismissed that possibility.
You even went as far as to point say “This wouldn’t normally be a problem if women were given the encouragement and opportunities and lessons in self sufficiency that are given to men.”
Seriously? Do you think we all have some playbook we’re taught from as a sex? Most men I know didn’t have a strong male role model. We weren’t taught the life lessons necessary to be strong and self sufficient.
All we were taught is that we were bad and evil because our color and sex (White Men) had oppressed the blacks, the hispanics and women.
We’re hated the world over for things our parents did, a legacy of their sins. Only we no longer have the upside to go with it. We don’t often get the training necessary to prepare us, and yet women like you assume that we do and treat us as if its true. Isn’t that exactly what you’re worried about men doing to women? I believe the word is stereotype.
As far as the rest of your stance goes, I understand. Women have had it rough. If you really think it’s an issue though, don’t you think Cosmo might be a better target than the cover of my latest Exalted book? Which one do you think more young girls are reading?
I buy roleplaying games to weave a consensual reality with the players in my group, much like thousands of other gaming groups across the world. We play games that promote the stories we want to tell.
Right now that story is taking place in Exalted which has naked women strewn all over the book. Many of them are obviously slaves. You can’t get any more objectifying than a pleasure slave really.
There is also rampant violence, drugs and the most debauched sex you can imagine. We play these games because they are a fantasy. We know it isn’t reality.
If the portayal of women in RPGs can change the mindsets of players to the point where we objectify women in the real world then answer me this.
Why don’t you have an issue with the slavery, drugs or violence? If our minds are so malleable that we’ll subconsciously treat women like pleasure slaves after playing a roleplaying game why don’t you worry that we’re going to start taking opium and fucking other men in the ass? These are themes running through the books in both story and artwork, just like the women as pleasure slaves.
I understand and agree that women should be treated equally. They shouldn’t have their rights restricted or their persons violated. They shouldn’t be mocked or harassed.
None of the men I know who play these games would ever do any of those things. Most of us would stop any of those acts if we saw them.
EA was irresponsible in their advertising, and should be reprimanded. If that’s the environment they are promoting at cons that needs to change. I’m all for you on that point.
However, I will never think its ok for you to restrict the type of images portrayed in my roleplaying games. If you have issue with the content of these books don’t read them.
Please don’t assume they’ll warp our minds and make us objectify women. If that’s even possible you’ve got much worse problems than the portrayal of women.
Small woodland creatures everywhere will be in danger if reading Exalted can change our moral outlook. In case I wasn’t blunt enough they are in danger of being raped, because there is a whole hell of a lot of sex with animals in Exalted.
Bestiality is right up there with homosexuality in this game. Do you feel those should be changed too, or just the part where women are portrayed in a way realistic to the setting?