An attractive man is more likely to be promoted, more likely to get the girl and just generally more well liked. An attractive athletic man is even more so.

An unattractive or fat man is ignored and looked down upon. When I see a guy on the cover of a magazine or even an RPG cover the men are ripped. They too have perfect bodies.

Objectification of the male form is just as common as that of the female. As you’ve pointed out such conceptions can be very damaging. The differences is that I know they happen to men every day, but you casually dismissed that possibility.

You even went as far as to point say “This wouldn’t normally be a problem if women were given the encouragement and opportunities and lessons in self sufficiency that are given to men.”

Seriously? Do you think we all have some playbook we’re taught from as a sex? Most men I know didn’t have a strong male role model. We weren’t taught the life lessons necessary to be strong and self sufficient.

All we were taught is that we were bad and evil because our color and sex (White Men) had oppressed the blacks, the hispanics and women.

We’re hated the world over for things our parents did, a legacy of their sins. Only we no longer have the upside to go with it. We don’t often get the training necessary to prepare us, and yet women like you assume that we do and treat us as if its true. Isn’t that exactly what you’re worried about men doing to women? I believe the word is stereotype.

As far as the rest of your stance goes, I understand. Women have had it rough. If you really think it’s an issue though, don’t you think Cosmo might be a better target than the cover of my latest Exalted book? Which one do you think more young girls are reading?

I buy roleplaying games to weave a consensual reality with the players in my group, much like thousands of other gaming groups across the world. We play games that promote the stories we want to tell.

Right now that story is taking place in Exalted which has naked women strewn all over the book. Many of them are obviously slaves. You can’t get any more objectifying than a pleasure slave really.

There is also rampant violence, drugs and the most debauched sex you can imagine. We play these games because they are a fantasy. We know it isn’t reality.

If the portayal of women in RPGs can change the mindsets of players to the point where we objectify women in the real world then answer me this.

Why don’t you have an issue with the slavery, drugs or violence? If our minds are so malleable that we’ll subconsciously treat women like pleasure slaves after playing a roleplaying game why don’t you worry that we’re going to start taking opium and fucking other men in the ass? These are themes running through the books in both story and artwork, just like the women as pleasure slaves.

I understand and agree that women should be treated equally. They shouldn’t have their rights restricted or their persons violated. They shouldn’t be mocked or harassed.

None of the men I know who play these games would ever do any of those things. Most of us would stop any of those acts if we saw them.

EA was irresponsible in their advertising, and should be reprimanded. If that’s the environment they are promoting at cons that needs to change. I’m all for you on that point.

However, I will never think its ok for you to restrict the type of images portrayed in my roleplaying games. If you have issue with the content of these books don’t read them.

Please don’t assume they’ll warp our minds and make us objectify women. If that’s even possible you’ve got much worse problems than the portrayal of women.

Small woodland creatures everywhere will be in danger if reading Exalted can change our moral outlook. In case I wasn’t blunt enough they are in danger of being raped, because there is a whole hell of a lot of sex with animals in Exalted.

Bestiality is right up there with homosexuality in this game. Do you feel those should be changed too, or just the part where women are portrayed in a way realistic to the setting?

Maybe its hard for you guys to understand, but the constant over emphasis on the female form only serves to enforce the idea to many that a woman’s value lies only in her genetic traits. That causes all sorts of problems and damage. Its not about ruining your fun, its about trying to repair the power shift where women are only as valuable as how sexual they will be/look. Its not about special treatment, or being the superior gender, its about asking that we be respected. Currently, sexual objectification and respect do not dwell in the same house. You wouldn’t perpetuate stereotypes or values that would do social harm to people of color, or people with disabilities, would you? Women still suffer wage disparity and other forms of discrimination, usually based on stereotypes that can be traced back to “women only exist as objects for men’s pleasure”, an idea that is rooted in this extreme objectification.

I think we just want to be considered–not take over and dictate that everything go our way. I think we’d like to be valued for our brains more than our body, to not be groped on the subway, or leered at wherever we go and constantly reminded that no one cares if we can do long division, they just want to know if we’ll flash our tits. I can’t tell you how painful and damaging that can be. Again, its not about ruining your fun or making women the “superior gender”. I think most feminists like myself would just like to see us all respect one another regardless of whether or not we present ourselves sexually. Currently, this industry does not facilitate that sort of respect. You may argue that its not the industry’s “responsibility”, but isn’t it all our personal responsibility to act decently and not behave in a way that perpetuates discrimination? I guess that’s up to each individual.

One more thing. You make the point a lot about how men have fantasy physiques in games, too. Please remember that objectifying men in our society rarely leads to social problems and degradation such as it does to women. We comment on women’s bodies so much that they become “public property” where anyone feels they have a right to comment on a woman’s appearance, whether or not she’s presented herself in a way that means she’d like to be objectified. Failure to measure up is seen as failure as a person. This wouldn’t normally be a problem if women were given the encouragement and opportunities and lessons in self sufficiency that are given to men. Instead, we’re taught that we have to be physically perfect to keep a man, and we must keep a man in order to survive/be happy. No wonder we have an epidemic of young women who fight and claw to find a sugar daddy, practically prostituting themselves for a little security. They’re just trying to survive the only way they’ve been taught, and they barely know any better.

I truly sincerely believe this will work itself out in the future as more women are taught to be self sufficient, and men are seen less as a commodity and are valued more for their personality than their checking account (yes, I acknowledge that men have their fair share of problems too, and being valued for your money over you as a person must feel absolutely terrible) but until then, we must all try. At least a little.

We don’t want to “take over” and ruin everyone’s fun. We’d just like to be considered.

http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads/2004PDFs/7July04PDF/ExaltedSavantandSorceror.jpg

Even without as direct an example as the EA Sin to Win campaign, the ubiquity of sexual objectification of women in the advertising and art of the gaming (or any) industry presents cultural support for gender discrimination and it’s associated risk. Whether it be the privileging of appearance over competence for determining the value of women, the defaulting of women’s sexual availability, or the implied approval in regards to violent acts against women (Rapelay, Pimp the Backhanding, the beaten looking slavegirls in the Conan RPG art), these images and products contribute to a cultural environment which at best fails to condemn the violation of women and at worst initites it (Sin to Win). There needn’t be a one to one relationship between the product and the act for there to be a connection. Any contribution to an environment of acceptability contributes to the acts that happen within it.

EA’s stunt was probably at the farthest extreme of “can advertising of gaming harm women.” I disagree that it did harm (people, who took an advertising scheme out of context, did harm), but I’d understand if people disagree with me on that. More importantly though, would roleplaying (or gaming in general) benefit from a paradigm shift to prevent anything like this from happening? Someone on RPGnet mentioned that gaming would benefit from erring on the side of prudishness, but I disagree with that.

This seems a pretty clear cut example of how a woman can be put in danger from advertising, which means I need to recant my entire post. Shit. Well tomorrow I’ll make another thread on RPG.net and do up a post showing this ad and telling David’s story.

I feel like an ass =/

Chris :
So let me see if I understand this correctly David. Not only is Electronic Arts encouraging people to sexually assault random women at Comic Con, but they are having a contest for the the best proof of this felony being committed?
A multi-billion dollar corporation is asking people to commit aggravated sexual assault? Not only that but in a place where the media spotlight is focused as brightly as it can be? To what possible benefit?
No corporation in the world would allow a stunt like this. That’s asking for a lawsuit. Many lawsuits. And it would generate the worst PR they could possibly have.
This doesn’t wash and I don’t buy it. Cute.

http://kotaku.com/5322216/ea-provides-girls-asks-gamers-to-sin-to-win

A multi-billion dollar corporation is asking people to commit aggravated sexual assault? Not only that but in a place where the media spotlight is focused as brightly as it can be? To what possible benefit?

No corporation in the world would allow a stunt like this. That’s asking for a lawsuit. Many lawsuits. And it would generate the worst PR they could possibly have.

This doesn’t wash and I don’t buy it. Cute.

If your friend really did get groped at Comic Con I think that’s tragic. It never should have occured and the person who did it should be prosecuted.

I just don’t buy EA getting people to perpetrate crimes while filming it at their behest.

You also mentioned it being a boy’s hobby, but your comment is directed at a woman. Christine is a good friend of mine and we’ve gamed together for many years.

Still, I’ll assume you meant that comment for me and not her so I’ll respond accordingly.

Just because I took issue with the women posting this letter doesn’t mean I don’t want women in the gaming industry. Why does an objection to a specific part of the letter make me anti-woman? It’s not a man’s hobby. It’s a gamers hobby.

Seriously, I am a pure-blooded gamer chick and I do not see in any way how the companies are placing me or other women in danger.

You want an anecdote?

I had a friend who was groped viciously at Comic Con. The perpetrator had a friend take a picture of the incident. Why? Because he was trying to win a prize from Electronic Arts’ advertising department.

But she’s narrow-minded and her opinion doesn’t matter, right? She should just shut up and leave the boys’ hobby alone.

WHAT IN THE FRAK ARE THESE WOMEN ON.

Seriously, I am a pure-blooded gamer chick and I do not see in any way how the companies are placing me or other women in danger. IT is the actions of the person behind the character in what ever game they are playing that draws attention. If you do not want to be seen as a sex object, then do not dress your character in scantly clad gear nor give them a personality that screams the sex appeal. Do not throw your character out there, having them flirt or say things naughty or implying if you do not want that type of attention. See the trend here, you do not want that attention then DO not act in such a manner that shall gain such attention.

It is that kind of narrow minded crap that gives bad reps for the games I love and enjoy playing and gives gamer chicks like me labels I do not want.

The fact remains that -I- like the hobby the way it is. I could have said the hobby, but then it divorces my connection to it. I’m speaking for me and only for me so I thought my hobby made the most sense.

That doesn’t deprive anyone else of their right to say what they want about it. If it came across that way it wasn’t my intention. Moving past that do you believe that advertising in gaming is dangerous to women?